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  1. #16
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Wilbraham ma.
    Posts
    2,748
    Thank you Maniac,
    for that great info on batteries.I'm still digesting it all. I have to admit,that I never gave much thought to batteries.
    I would just buy Interstates as they had a good reputation,and they were carried by the boat yard where I do my business.
    I'm a halfway decent back yard mechanic,and do almost all my own work on my boat,home,truck etc.,but I know when I'm out of my element,and when to leave it up to the pro's.
    My battery,and electrical knowledge is basic at best so your reply was very helpful.

    Arbogaster, Hey Eric,thanks for the idea on the battery combiner. I'll give you a call one of these days to ask you about that and also your trip up to Olcott.I'm hoping the fish will be right off Wilson and Olcott.
    Also looks like I'll be buying a new battery charger after reading the good info from you all.
    John R.
    * Boat #1 23' SeaCraft Tsunami
    * Boat #2 20' SeaCraft Seafari
    * Port- Olcott NY.

  2. #17
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Muskegon
    Posts
    2,081

    my boat and batteries

    OK I should have clarified what I have.

    2007 166 Starcraft Starfish single console, 75 HP Merc with Minn Kota bow mount trolling motor (not sure on thrust).

    Boat when bought had 2 older bad deep cycles for the trolling motor (would not take charge). They had corrosion on them and I pulled them out and cleaned them up and tried to charge - nope. I use a benchtop Die Hard charger - has trickle 2 A and 10 A quick charge. I always use trickle unless I absolutely need to quick charge. Also has 50A starting setting.

    Boat also has a starting battery same brand as the bad deep cycles. Probably were original with the boat when bought new. So may need to get new starting battery soon - no big deal.

    Added combo starting / deep cycle for riggers and electronics. Could use this one for starting if the other one craps out.

    So I have 4 batteries - 3 of which I will give top off charges as needed and the starting battery should be maintained by the motor. Someday may add onboard charging system but for now will use the benchtop unit with batteries still in boat.

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Muskegon
    Posts
    2,452
    OK class is back in session LOL have covered basic battery selection lets discuss maintenance. First keep it clean and charged a dirty battery top will leak voltage bad connections cause known problems. Most people do not know how to charge a battery and often hook a charger up with no regard to settings. If you want to charge a battery or bank of them you need the right charger and settings to do it. First rule is you can't save a junk battery with a normal charger. So if you have a bad battery unhook it and test the voltage. If it is a wet cell make sure it is ful of water and not frozen, there should be no swelling of the case. On a 12v battery if it is below 10 volts there is a chance you have a bad cell. When recovering a battery from dead apply a small trickle charge and watch the voltage if the voltage comes up fairly fast it may be saved. If that is the case now switch to a high charge rate if your charger has a start boost setting use it for 2 min or the max time out setting of the charger do not exceed the max time out it will eventually damage the charger. After you have done this lower the charge rate and monitor the voltage if it is around 13v or better you likely have a good battery. 13.6 would be great set your charger on its highest continuous charge rate and let it go for a couple hours. One other thing to pay attention to is the battery temp if it gets hot there is a problem and you need to stop. Ok so now you have let it charge on high for a few hours and you come back you should unhook the charger for 20 min or more and allow the battery to rest. Once you have let it rest test the battery voltage it should be above 13v 12.8 would be weak 13.6 would be fully charged. If it is not hot and somewhere in that 12.8 to 13.6 range you can put it on trickle charge and leave it over night. Repeat the resting cycle and voltage test the next day if it improved you can continue to charge and hope the battery fully recovers if there is little or no improvement you have a weak battery. It may do some work for you but it likely will fail some day soon and has reduced capacity. Once it is as fully charged as it can be a good battery analyzer will tell you what you have left.

    There are several charge rates we use on batteries and in chargers. Bulk or Start is high voltage high amps and must be time limited. Absorption is a fairly high voltage high amperage charge designed to bring the battery back to fully or nearly fully charged in a short time. Trickle charge is used for small batteries or to top off a battery that is nearly charged. Maintenance is used to keep a battery charged when not in use.

    Most battery chargers will have a couple of battery modes sometimes 3 or more but often just starting or deep cycle or could be Normal and Maintenance free. the mode switch sets maximum charge voltage to not damage the battery. Then you have charge settings which often include Start High and Trickle but could have more or less. You really need to know what the voltages are for each mode to be sure your using the correct mode and rate of charge. Now many people love to buy those battery tenders and they can be cool but being most of us are cheap we often buy the wrong one. How is that you ask they all do the same thing right ? Well sort of what most don't know is nearly all of them have a cut off where they quit completely. This is a safety so they don't charge a junk battery the idea is it must be able to get the battery to fully charged within a time limit. If it does not reach full charge in the time limit it thinks the battery is junk and shuts itself off.

    How is that a problem you ask? Well let's say you use your trolling motor all weekend and run the battery completely down. When you get home you plug in your little battery tender put your gear away and go watch the ball game. When your tender times out and my bet is you bought the cheap one that is actually designed for a lawn tractor not a car or boat. So it will time out before the battery is charged up. You won't know a thing except the next time you go fishing your battery will start out only partly charged so it will run down a little faster. Now repeat the cycle all summer and you have ruined your new battery. So with a now junk battery you head to the place you bought it and demand they replace it. You argue with the clerk who likely knows less about a battery than you that it has been on a battery tender ever day since you bought it and must be junk. Your not lying and your not going to accept anything less than a new battery. This happens every week at the shop I work in and my boss will replace your battery pretty much every time. Our battery vender will take the battery charge it and resell it. Or better for me I will get the boss or my vender to give me the battery and I get a new battery every year for my boats for free. The result is I have not paid for a battery in any of my boats in 15 years there is always a pile of good batteries behind our shop. The company won't pay us to recondition them so all I have to do is replace the core so I bring in my old junk battery and swap it for another battery.
    Thanks

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Hartford, MI.
    Posts
    598
    "All the EverStarts I have seen are sealed AGM batteries that is the difference."

    I've got a #24 size that I just re-tired as my starter battery. The reason, it's every bit of 10+ years old. Just finish charging all 3 batts and the EverStart maintains the highest charge after sitting over night at 13.4v. But I carry it for my spreader lights and for back-up.

    Martin
    "Sometimes I'm out for the fish, sometimes I'm out for the fishing" ZIGGY

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Muskegon
    Posts
    2,452
    Quote Originally Posted by martin1950 View Post
    "All the EverStarts I have seen are sealed AGM batteries that is the difference."

    I've got a #24 size that I just re-tired as my starter battery. The reason, it's every bit of 10+ years old. Just finish charging all 3 batts and the EverStart maintains the highest charge after sitting over night at 13.4v. But I carry it for my spreader lights and for back-up.

    Martin

    That is cool and the truth is with good maintenance almost any battery will last for many years. That however does not change my opinion that the Trojan starts life as a better battery. Often people ask what is the best and then don't like the answer. I can't change that I am just passing on some info. And often the difference between the guy who loves a product and the guy who hates the same product is the quality of care each provides. I had a friend that had a golf cart that was well over 30 years old and it still had the same Trojan batteries it came with 15 years ago which he thinks were the original batteries. People get 10 to 20 years out of a lift truck battery all the time but they cost a couple grand so they take better care of them. Since the are more than double the price and never go on sale I would say many agree with me. Or they would of gone out of business long ago.

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Ellison Bay, WI
    Posts
    5,138
    good info 1maniac. thanks

  7. #22
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Muskegon
    Posts
    2,452
    Thanks I sometimes find it redundant to have people ask about Deep Cycle batteries since in reality hardly anyone actually uses one. The most common battery found in a boat is a AGM Marine starting dual purpose battery. It is not a Deep Cycle battery no matter what they write on the label it is a car battery with heavier plates to allow it to hold up to charging cycles better. True Deep Cycle batteries will not produce a lot of power but they will produce a large amount of power for a very long time. So they suck as starting batteries which need to produce a extremely high current for a short burst to start the engine. IE Cold Cranking Amps so in the avg AGM marine battery we see 550 CCA and 80 to 105 AH for a group 24 battery. Where a true Deep Cycle of the same size might struggle to produce 350CCA but will likely produce 140 to 180 AH. Now Compare that to a Automotive battery of the same size and you see close to 800CCA but likely 50 to 60AH Think how fast your battery goes dead at the beach with your stereo cranked up. The reason is your car battery was never designed to run things it was designed to start the car period. So if you use a 20amp rate for your trolling motor your truck battery will run it for 2 or 3 hours your marine starting battery will run it 4 to 5 hours and a good Deep Cycle might run it 7 to 9 hours.

  8. #23
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Racine
    Posts
    56
    Wow lots of good info here! Maniac could could you explain the desulfurization type of chargers? I've read more about these regarding smaller motorcycle/snowmobile/lawn tractor batteries. I was told that these will also work on larger car/boat batteries but not sure now. :) Do these really work to bring a battery back to working condition? Are they really worth the price?
    Thanks for the help
    Mark

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Muskegon
    Posts
    2,452
    In some cases yes they will work but keep in mind most are designed for small batteries. It is roughly the same as a equalization charge. The idea is a high voltage charge will clean the plates the issue which can be solved easy in large batteries is the solids still pile up on the bottom and eventually either short the plate out or reduce the plates to the point the battery is useless. If you ever took batteries apart for the lead you would know that the bottom is full of sulfur and sludge. When new it was all liquid on large batteries they remove the plates clean out the case inspect the plates and put them back together with fresh Sulfuric Acid. As a battery works it creates heat which vaporizes the water in the solution leaving a thicker slurry in the battery ignored that becomes solids which is why you need to maintain the water level in a lead acid battery. AGN is Absorbed Glass Mat which is a non conductive sponge for sulfuric acid between the plates. When it breaks down there is no repair process you just replace it. Which is why charge rates must be controlled since you cant replace the water so if your charging system cooks the battery one time it is damaged forever.

    So back to your question the reason you don't hear about this for car and boat batteries is because most car and boat batteries are AGM design and would be ruined by this type of charger. Which is why I said it would work in some cases there are a few that still use wet cell batteries. If you have a sealed battery the answer is no. My 1978 80hp Merc would run 3 to 4 years on a wet cell battery and eat a AGM every year. If your using sealed batteries and they are failing one of 2 things is happening either your using them too hard IE overloading them and getting them hot. Or you charging system is ruining them by too high of charge rate or voltage. A correctly sized AGM battery and charging system should give you 3 to 4 years of service every time pretty much no matter what label is on it. Nearly 40 years of fixing other peoples problems have taught me the guys who never have battery problems are the ones who buy the right battery and take care of it. I get batteries for free out of the junk piles and have less problems then guys who pay out the butt year after year. But I also know if the battery I install is at 80% than I know that is the limit I can expect of it so I can plan on that service and with care still get a couple years of use from it. You can ask Frank or Ryan and they will perhaps say it different but when you spec out a boat from them they will use the same rules for battery selection. They will match the application to the charging system and as long as you take care of it you will be happy customers.

  10. #25
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Location
    Wilmington
    Posts
    1
    I'll throw in my $.02, and I apologize for bumping...

    Deep Cycle describes the ability to be deeply discharged before being recharged. Starting batteries have a limited amount of times they can withstand a deep cycle.

    In my opinion, the most important thing on a deep cycle battery is the RC and AH (amp hours). The RC is more accurate when used for high amp draw items like trolling motors.

    The AH rating gives a better idea on how long a battery can carry lighter load, such as lights and electronics.

    The RC rating is the number of minutes that a new, fully charged battery can carry a 25amp load at 80* Fahrenheit with a minimum voltage of 10.5 Volts. RC minutes are typically calculate using a 25amp discharge rate.

    The AH rating tells you the number of amps that a new, fully charged battery can deliver at 80* F, multiplied by the number of hours, without falling below 10.5 V

    Ex: A 100AH battery can deliver 5 amps for 20 hours (5 X 20 = 100). The 20 hour mark is a "generally accepted" time frame in the marine industry.

    The higher the amp draw, the fewer total amps a battery can deliver. So that same 100AH battery cannot deliver 25 amps for 4 hours.

    Some batteries will show you both the AH and RC. You'll see some differences. Said battery might show 100AH, and 150 RC. Not all batteries are linear.

    For general comparison, here's Everstart (Cabelas) Deep Cycle:
    Group Size 24 75AH 100RC
    Group Size 27 115AH 160RC
    Group Size 29 125AH 205RC

    After running a bass boat for 20 years and trying my best to take care of my batteries, I'd definitely be looking for the highest RC I could find that'll work for my circumstances. Like Ken said, hauling a 45# battery versus possible a 65# battery back and forth gets old quick.

  11. #26
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Neenah, WI
    Posts
    66
    I priced out some to have an idea what they go for now. I run group 29 for my electric trolling motor and factory had a 27 for motor start.

    Couple things. With the longer runs for Salmon fishing might be worth looking at Combiner 100 and if you have a electric trolling motor Trollbridge24 (they also make a 36 version you don't need the combiner as it is built in). I'm about to start the 6 season on my batteries and use electric trolling only for Walleyes and use ele trolling for autosteer for salmon fishing.

    Looks like they now have a new version that combines the two for 24 volt ele trolling motors as well.

    I see amazon sell this but cheaper at the MFG web page.

    Trollbridge 12X24


    [COLOR=#555555 !important]by [COLOR=#555555 !important]YANDINA

    Where I purchased looks like they are on sale now.
    https://search.defender.com/?expression=Yandina&s=1


    [/COLOR]
    [/COLOR]

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